The Business of Global Productions with Cary Woodworth

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Hello and welcome to On Production brought to you by Wrapbook. I'm your host. Cameron Woodward, and this is where we explore the art, business and craft of bringing stories to life on screen. Today, we're diving into the world of global productions, cross cultural collaborations, and building a thriving production business. Our guest is Cary Woodworth, who is a multi talented actor turned producer who founded Legacy Pictures and Maverick from bringing Hollywood expertise to Chinese film sets to spearheading international co-productions, Kerry has built a reputation for bridging cultures and pushing boundaries in both film and commercial work. He's known for his connector leadership style, collaborating with palette around the globe, nurturing new filmmakers and helping stories find their perfect home. I've met him in New York, in Los Angeles and Vegas. We've worked together a long time. So if you've ever wondered what it takes to balance artistic passion with the demands of running multiple production companies, or how to navigate the logistical and cultural hurdles of filming across continents. This episode's for you. Thanks for joining me, Cary. Thank you very much. That was like the nicest introduction I've ever had. Thank you. I have a bunch of really interesting questions for you, because you've had such an interesting career as a filmmaker. So you know, you once produced a film remotely while you were on the other side of the world acting in a TV show. Yeah. So what did that experience teach you about managing a production team at a distance, and how those lessons influenced the way you run your company, especially in today's era of remote collaboration?

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It's interesting. I don't know how you found that out. You you guys, did a lot of good research. I remember that was, uh, I was acting in a series in China, and it was a film in New York, and this was 2011 I remember that clearly it I just something that had to be done, because I was just, we were just very passionate about the project and about getting it made and made well, so I worked with, you know, built out a team, a production team there on the ground, and, you know, get calls at three in the morning or whatever it took. And it was interesting when zoom came out. I remember, before that, WebEx and stuff, you never really thought about remote production like that as a possibility. This was a little different, because it was a little smaller of film. I knew how to go in and out. I knew that, like on the ground production work in New York, and I knew what we could potentially run into. So it wasn't so weird. But I think doing it, if I thought of then what we do now over you know, time zones, multiple countries, whatnot, blow my mind. I just believe with everything, with the technology now, like, literally anything's possible, and I think we've been applying that from day one, we've been very always thinking globally, even if we're working locally, like now we're working even on some of our US projects that we're doing. We're doing post overseas and not just in one country. I mean, we've built out a whole structure for post that's just amazing, working in four or five different countries at the same time and smoothly. So that's been really cool.

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In an old interview, you said that producing requires you to be the mommy, daddy, organizer and leader all at once. Can you share a concrete example from your career where you truly had to wear all those hats on a project, and how did you balance being a nurturing supporter and a tough decision maker in that situation? I

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say that I do that every day because I am a dad, a motherly dad in real life, and I think it just kind of comes with everything we do, and that's across the board with everyone on our team. We're all playing different roles. Sorry. What was your second question?

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It's really like, how have you found the balance of being both the nurturing supporter and a tough decision maker. In these types of complex production situations,

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there's things that need to get done in production that you always have to look at those things being done, and it doesn't matter. You know, everyone has an ego, and we embrace that. Everyone has an ego, but if that's in the way of getting done, then we need to fix that. So if it's replacing that person, or changing the model or and it's not just ego, I mean, whatever is in the way of the production from it happening, so you can restructure, you know what needs to get done, and you know what kind of checkpoints you need to look at? Right? And as long as those things are getting hit, then you're okay, but you can restructure the model. Or, for example, you might be in a situation where, because we're physically limited from, you know, we're in a very sensitive area we've shot in government areas where it's very sensitive for certain governments or certain companies, you know, leaking information. So a crew has to be really tight. So you have to double up or triple up on roles in the system. You have to build out that system. And well, as long as we need to record, we need to record the video. When you record the sound, we got to make sure that continuity. We got to make sure that everything's on time. You know, it's like those essential things are hit and everyone eats, and, you know, everyone has a bathroom. So it's like those essential things to production. When you have that in place, then you can rejigger that model. So we've as far as, like, playing the different roles of being motherly, but also maybe tough on on folks. What's really important is being, you know, listening to where they're coming from, and understanding what they're going through, but at the same time, there's a job we need to do. And if someone's like, Look, I just don't feel comfortable doing this. But it needs to get done whatever it is. Like, I don't I don't feel comfortable lifting c stands. I didn't think that was it. I thought I was just buying crafty Well, that's your job as a PA, so you're just not doing your job, and we're gonna have to let you go and replace you. So that's just kind of part of the job. So again, it really depends on where they're coming from, and we try to be as understanding as possible, but we have to get things done. That's great.

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Shifting a little bit. Cary, is it true that you speak Mandarin? Yes, that's awesome. So you've straddled Hollywood and the Chinese film industry, yeah, and not just as a producer, but also as an actor who speaks Mandarin Correct. What's something that you think Hollywood could learn from Chinese filmmakers and vice versa, based off of your cross culture experiences

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6:56  

in China? It was kind of like it's a longer story, but their model of where their filmmaking model, where they learn filmmaking, was started from studios that really well. It kind of started a long, long time before that, but they had these studios, these government sanctioned studios that had, like, almost like a theater troupe. It had a kind of model to it. And then after that, they learned from Hong Kong, and then they learned like pieces from

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Hong Kong. And like, Jackie Chan came up in one of those theaters right in Hong Kong, yeah. He

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was a theater troupe, yeah. And is, like, like the Shanghai film studio. They had their own studio, which is kind of like their troop, and it was very regimented and kind of like a structure, but it was, you know, they learned a lot from from that, into growing into more Hollywood and whatnot. It's kind of funny. They took pieces of different things and and then you you apply Chinese business mindset, which is very different from the US. I would say, one thing that they do, that we can learn a lot from them, I would say, is they know systems. They know systems, as far as like business systems, and being able to follow the systems to a T or to, you know, to benefit their projects or or disrupt them. And they do that with every business. I mean, look at like Temu and how they used the US Post Office, and how, you know, just any business, they always are understanding. You find some of the best Amazon sellers are out of China because they understand. They look into the they they do the work that I don't want to do. It. Just go in and say, oh, what? How do I maximize opportunity in this? So, business wise, they're very smart that way. I think there's a lot that. I mean, it's two different systems. So as far as learning, they've are, they have been learning a lot from the US and about, you know, filmmaking techniques and, I mean, there's just so much cross education that's been going on for a number of years. I mean, we, I was a part of that, like helping to bring folks from other parts of the world to China to to learn about wardrobe and cinematography and all kinds of things. So there's a lot of of that, and it's very developed there now in China. So but one thing, for example, these, like, I'm sure you know about these vertical series, Micro Series, that are coming out of China, officially Singapore, and now they're coming out of different countries. They're shooting all over the world. It's a very big business. And it came from the, essentially, the Silicon Valley of China. And that whole how it all started, is really smart, and that's something we can learn, is there's opportunities to create content, create stories from things that we never would expect to and I think the Chinese have found those nooks through their technology, which is super, super I admire, admire those folks that took the step. And created those opportunities for Tiktok, all of that, which was called, do you did China? That's awesome?

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Yeah, I was just seeing the news stories coming out about this, this micro storytelling. It's so interesting, because I look at the amazing work that Katzenberg did to build quibi, like quibi got, like, panned by the media, but like it's potentially before its time, or like it had distribution problems, whereas, like Tiktok has the distribution mechanism, it was just interesting to see how this is emerging. Quibi,

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I think they took a Hollywood model to it a little too quickly. Instead of developing the audience, they just threw in famous people and things like that, and stories that they thought, not never everyone in America necessarily wanted to see in a model they weren't used to. While this is just like very low budget soap operas that are very modeled in it's very old school. Let's just say, you know, where the man is, the man is the hero and the woman is, you know, and it's just, you know, and they know it. They just know that that's what they're making money

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on. I had a really wonderful guest on the podcast with a business called Kold Open, and it's all about mid form content. And the observation that was so interesting was like, if you look at a lot of IP that's become extremely successful, is it started as mid form or short form content, build an audience, and then like, you can extend out those stories and build like, just really different types of multi platform content as as it matures, so it's super interesting. So your business is legacy, pictures and legacy calls itself a team of creators, connectors and collaborators as a leader. How do you cultivate that collaboration across your teams, spread across Los Angeles, Beijing, Vancouver and beyond? Like, how do you do it so that your offices feel like they're a part of the same legacy and standards? Like,

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we have meetings and meetups all the time. So there's always ways that in times, we always are finding and people working in different hours, we find times where it all intersects, and we make sure to have that consistently, and we're really just accountable to each other. And I think that creating that accountability environment is really important. We don't talk badly about each other, and we make sure to be very cognizant of that kind of because that's just negative speak. It's not helpful. And we know that. I mean, you can get frustrated and be like, Oh, that person did this. Ah, so annoying, and you need to let it out. But what we do is we have systems in place that we make it so that there's a there's a good, positive environment. There's a lot of SOPs that we have to follow to make sure that this works, because we need to think of time zone culture, you know, and communication like, for example, we work a lot in India, right? We have people in India. We have producers, coordinators, whatnot. And we need to make sure that in the Indian culture, it's like very you just respect your boss, but you just say yes. Is this aspect of the project done? Yes, yes, yes. It's yeah, it's all good. And it's actually not. They just don't want to ruffle any feathers, and then they rush to get and it's not that's not a good thing to do, so we have to make sure there's alignment in that communication, and we know the culture to know that that's that could be a situation in advance, so therefore we kind of nip that in the bud in early on. And so it's kind of knowing those things by trial and error and experience, and that helps us a lot. But as far as like that alignment, you know, you find superstars. We're always looking. I will say we're always looking for talent. We're always interviewing. I will say I'm always interviewing, even if it's not like, you know, I'm looking for someone today, I'm always interviewed. Always I'm looking for superstars. It's interesting say that

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you've mentioned up and coming filmmakers. I found a quote from one young director that even said you quote believed in me and really mentored me. What do you look for in a new talent or projects that convinces you to invest your time and resources and has mentoring others taught you anything, or perhaps even influenced how you approach your own creative projects,

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I would say 100% I would say I never had a mentor, and I wish I did. And I still wish I do. Actually, I kind of was like, you know, be great to, you know, as an actor or as a I still kind of like, I should write to Daniel Day Lewis, you know. Or actually, like more like,

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you know, buy a pair of shoes off with him or something, yeah, kind of

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a little thing with, you know, Al Pacino at one point. And, you know, I just, just those kind of things, but finding those mentors, I think I've found certain folks that have kind of helped me, and I've reached out to them for guidance, but not as a full fledge mentor, I always have the door open to folks, because I know how hard it is for me. Service is really important, and service to clients like Amazon, you're What are you customer obsessed, or whatever, client obsessed? It's the same kind of thing. We're client obsessed, but we're also, like, Team obsessed, so we really want people to get a good experience and grow from this is a hard business. People don't make a lot of money. It's very, very difficult. And we have interns that come most internships and in film, in, you know, don't get paid. And so it's a very, very like what Robert De Niro said, like, if you could do anything else, just do it. Don't Do you know, and I will say it's a hard business. So I always am really appreciative of folks, and because of that, it naturally. I just want them to grow in their journey in ways that you know, because it's so difficult and really knowing what you want, the clearer you know what you want, the clearer you can get to where you need to go. I believe that. So I love to do that. So from that experience, and I've seen some, it's really like, there's a few I can pull out where it's like, oh, he started as an intern, or a PA, and then they were DP, ing, our, a couple of our shoots, and they, you know what, I mean, went on to the Union, and all of that, like, that's so exciting for me to watch that growth and be a part of it, like, like, serving a part of it. Like a few people, it was like, oh, here you're a camera. Pa, here your second AC, now you're, you know. And with that, I think it definitely gave me the ability to listen more, really, listen for cues. Know how to ask. Because a lot of folks still like, oh, yeah, it's, I just want to film. I want to make film. And they don't. They're not clear. I found ways to be able to listen and ask the questions and really listen for those things that actually help them to see what it is that's exciting them, because it's it's hard. It's hard. When I was 20, whatever, years old, I was just like, I don't know what I want. I knew I wanted to act, and I was acting in my early 20s, but I wasn't clear. I was just kind of, like, going to any audition, going for anything, just, do you have a job, anything? So it's that. And then now I know what I love and what I don't love, you know, and I'm a little more I'm a lot more picky in the sense that I don't have the time to just do whatever and be in whatever and I don't want to. That's awesome. You

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know, what's been so interesting about your career is you've moved into all different types of roles. You've been fluidly between indie art films, big brand commercials. You have another company called Maverick. How does your creative process shift when you're preparing a narrative feature for a festival versus a commercial for a corporate client? And do you find that working in advertising has made you a better filmmaker, or maybe vice versus that's

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a great question. So we have essentially three businesses, right? One is the Production Development of films, TV. That's legacy. We actually have a new business. The Production Services is a different company. So production and post services, and then there's Maverick, which is commercial production. So that's mainly working with agencies. Sometimes brands is a different I'd say it's a different tone. It's a different vibe in the commercial space, as you know. I mean, we met at AICP, and it definitely has a different vibe than going to AFM. Or it's a different interest. It's a different production is different. The budget structure is different. What they look for, shorter turnarounds, you know, but also, like, I find a lot of commercial folks would would like to be making films that have win Oscars or whatnot. They love awards. And I know filmmakers that cross both, you know, directors we rep directors that go on both sides.

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I mean, I think Fellini actually did commercials in his career. I think so. I think I saw one for, like, a possible, I think so I'll confirm that for the show notes. So I'm pretty sure, like, you know, huge directors have done commercials forever.

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Sure, yeah. I mean, that's where Fincher Ridley Scott, I mean, they all started with commercials, and they're still doing them. I mean, really, Scott has RSA. I mean, they, they all have, you know, aka, of companies and whatnot, and commercials are, it's a great way to explore. One thing I really love about is, like, when the creative has that freedom to explore different ways of telling stories or different, you know, it's actually amazing. Like, I don't remember what that, you know, yeah, of course, iconic. And from that built his film career, you know what I mean? Like, he's done a bunch of stuff he did, like drum line. I just think that there's a lot of when you find that thing that people like. Whoa. You know, I'm laughing

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thinking about the WhatsApp. I mean, it's just so good. It's so genius. I'd say,

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just to answer your question, like working in that, you know, shifting back and forth from film to commercials, it is. It's different mindset. It's interesting for me. Actually, I really enjoy both in different ways for me, production services like the, you know, the it's like a different I wear a different hat, like, I'm like, the person who's like solving any kind of solutions. It's more of a what is the client looking to, you know, get done more esthetically, or execute on creatively, and then on the film stuff, it's like, it's a whole smorgasbord of, you know, we got to get this talent and all of these nuts and bolts to be able to move it to get made, which is so difficult, anyone who says it's easy, I don't know, either they're geniuses or they're lying. That brings

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me to my next question, which is, what do you think is an underrated skill or trait that you believe every producer should have, but many don't in your own journey? Was there a skill you had to develop the hard way that you now consider essential to your success? Yeah,

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and I'm still developing it. I would say valuation. I am a math nerd. And I love the reason I got into this, like, line producing, Production Services, was because I just, I was acting, but it was, was the numbers and the budgets. Like, I'm really into that, like, I really enjoy that. And I was, and everyone, most people don't like that. So because of that, it was like being the bass player in the band where, Oh, someone's got to do it. No, I was like, Oh, I'll do it. I love it. Love it. So much fun. And I'm not talking about valuation of, oh, that sweater you're wearing, Cameron, I can tell how much it is, which I really love to do. But I mean valuation as far as, like, a project. If you know, a lot of filmmakers like believe in the story, they believe in the project, but they can't see where the home is for that project. And working backwards, I'm always I used to early on, and I failed so much like so much more than I fail now, where I take a project and feel like, Oh, well, the script's not there yet, but we have this, and it could be great, and we have, you know, and you're, you're going around, trying to take these projects around and push them through when they're not even ready, but you're not thinking about where, where is it going to be distributed? Who's, who's the audience? Does it make sense for this budget, for that audience? And you have to think backwards. So you have to always look at, imagine the film is complete, done. Where is the best place for it to play? How many people are going to watch it? You know, what kind of awards is it going to win? Well, you know, the business, those business aspects of it, because people don't think about that, because they're just thinking about the film, which I understand completely. But you have to, you have to take on that hat or that perception, that POV to be able to like once you're walking backwards, then you can know what you need to be able to move forward. So I do believe in that, that valuation your favorite

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film is reportedly Fellini's La Dolce Vita, yeah, I know it's funny you brought up Fellini, yeah. What about that film speaks to you as a storyteller, and can you give me an example of how it influenced either your artistic taste or your approach to production?

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Well, I wouldn't say approach to production, because I've heard Fellini would be like, literally calling out of a megaphone and being like, you go, there, you go, there. You know, you know, smile, you know, whatever, according to Ilya Kazan's book, that's where I got that from. But that film specifically, I mean, I love other his other films too, but that film was the only film for me that captured every aspect of life in one film. And I'm talking about greed, love, you know, I mean, undying love. Everything is in that film. And the best thing about that film is that it it's still playing like it's still going. If you watch the film to the end, and you watch the the ending of the film, it's not ending. It's that's how brilliant the film is. It's about life, and it's called the, what the sweet life is that the translation, you know. And there's some things you know, and I think the term paparazzi came out of it, because the one the character was Paparazzo. But, like, those are some aspects of it in the 1960 and in in Rome. But what it just, it's just amazing. How many things, if you, if you go through Steiner, and you know, all of the different characters, of what they go through, I mean, my God, it's so rich. And that, for me, was just like, wow. And in a film that keep, you know, it's not boring, and it's not like, I'm sitting there for 17 hours. It was like two and a half hours or three hours. But you don't, I don't feel like. Right? So for me, it's just like, wow. And I keep finding more things in that film that's

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awesome. Looking forward, what do you see as the next big frontier in film and television production that excites you? You know you've been a part of conversations on digital media and cross border entertainment. Is there a trend like virtual production or streaming globalization, or AI and filmmaking that you think is overhyped, or conversely, one that's under appreciated, that you're positioning yourself for,

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that's a really great that now I'm gonna, now I'm gonna start positioning and working on that. I'm just trying to, day by day on all the projects. You know, it's a balancing act. I will say what I see. I definitely think AI is going to change everything. I mean, it already is changing things. We're using it as a tool. But soon, tastes will change. AI will be accepted by folks, especially younger audiences. There'll always be a space for real people. There will always be a space for real documentary, and there's always going to be space for real people in narrative live action projects. And there's going to be a hybrid too, because there already is. We've used it for projects, for clients, for you know, they've had situations where they wanted to show like a low budget project, and they wanted to show like something that happens in the past, and it was like a recreation, and used AI, it was fine. Used AI for dubbing. We've used AI, obviously, for storyboards and for for pulling images a lot for the commercial industry. I mean, Warrior decks, a lot of treatments are using AI images because it's easier. Oh, we need to, you know, we're shooting a commercial. We want to, you know, pitch for Coke, but we can't use any Pepsi products. But the images, all the Pepsi product images are perfect, but we can't do that. Oh, let's throw it in a throw it in chat, GPT, and make an image and looks like this. And there you go. We, you know, it's not really for commercial consumption, but the AI dubbing, especially in Asia, like India, there's no issue with that there. There's no like here. There's companies that are like, forget about we don't do it. Monks, for example, like they don't, they're not doing or whatever. I don't think it's a it's a bad thing. I I think something that it's going to just happen. It's just more about being cognizant of what, of what's available for audiences and and future audiences. So that, you know, because for me, the human touch just, I still think film is better than than video. I really do. We use all kinds of video, you know, we shoot on Alexas and whatnot, but I still think film is better. I think it just looks better, feels better, and I can tell not everyone can, and the other audiences, maybe I just hope that there's that availability of information. We're actually making a film, sci fi feature called the order of the flesh with Jason man, and it talks about the future of humankind. And it's a very bleak view of where our education is, what we what we become. And I think people should be very cognizant of, you know, education and and and having that just being able to not, like, just go to things for convenience, because it it dumbs us down over time. I think with convenience, like any industry, it's going to change, and it changes is our, I don't know when, what year, maybe in five years, maybe in three years, or whatever, but it's changing it, and it's going to it's going to change it, and production is going to change completely. Absolutely. The world's getting smaller much quicker, and we're a big part of that. I still see where the disconnect it's like amazing big companies that we do work for, and they don't know anyone in those places. And I'm like, wow, how are we able to, we don't, you know, you want to go to Uzbek stand. Oh, yeah, you know. So it's like, it's just, it's just interesting that way, like you mentioned, you

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and I met in the commercial world. I have a background in production. My story, like yours, is, like, it went into this production services world with Wrapbook, but at the end of the day, fundamentally, I still think stories are powerful. And something I was always amazed by, even preceding all this AI revolution stuff, is just like, exactly to your point, how much access filmmakers get. Like, that's just the nature of the job. Is like, yeah, we're going to use best because, and we're going to interview the mayor of Paris, whatever you just like constantly meeting all these interesting people. Something that's fascinating. I was thinking about recently with AI is there's a great economist named Tyler Cowen who said he's actually been writing his most recent books, not for human audiences, but for LLMs Like he thinks of the content. These producing originally as like, potentially good training material, and like, I do wonder about that in relation to filmmakers in the future of expressing poetics in such a way that the intended audience is for the LLM, so that in a world where somebody is having content generated for them, that it's training meta story is from some other artists somewhere. I think that's like a really interesting idea, and I'm curious to see how it all plays out. Sir, what was the name Tyler? Tyler Cowen. He's an economist at George Mason University. Okay, great. Well, Cary, thank you so much for joining me on On Production. You are just such an incredible well of fascinating insights, and you have a really unique career. So thank you so much for sharing with

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us. Thank you, Cameron, thank you. It was great. I'm glad we made this happen. Me too.